U Not Gonna Like This

The purpose of this FAQ is to briefly identify prominent Feminist myths and tricks that are frequently used to disrupt good discussions, and by doing so, to give alt.mens-rights the tools to move onto better discussion; to focus instead of just endlessly defending against the same old anti-male slander.

The purpose is not to argue or to prove anything to anybody. If you're interested in more substantive material, I suggest starting with the WWW page (Not affiliated with this FAQ or with me) http://www.vix.com/men/index.html

Notice: The above link: (http://www.vix.com/men/index.html) which redirects to: (http://www.menweb.org/throop/index.html) has been deleted.
Go HERE to find a archived copy of the web site.

After some myths I include concise rebuttals and/or pointers to further information. Don't be misled: this is not an effort to fully explore and rebut the Feminist nonsense in question. It is a short reminder of what's wrong with that particular Feminist lie, nothing more.

Feminist generally follow up this FAQ with attacks, regardless that it's not directed to them nor intended to substantively prove anything. To them, everything is a move in their "men bad, women good" game. They don't want us to identify and name their lies. And that's a good reason to do it.

I urge you not allow these myths to derail discussion of other issues, even other related issues. If they have not got a clue yet, you can bet they won't get a clue from anything you say. Instead, I suggest simply cutting-and-pasting from this file, as some have done.

The myths below have had more than a fair hearing -- they have had billions of hearings, here and almost everywhere else on the planet. We in alt.mens-rights have heard and debunked these myths literally hundreds of times. I strongly suggest we refuse to re-discuss them endlessly. These little snippets of Feminist hatred have had their chance already. You don't owe them another one.

I feel that any self-respecting people after having addressed the myths once should not have tolerated them any further. We don't need to be complicit in our own defamation.

Myth: Men (or white males) have it great. Men are well provided-for by society.

False. On this planet, men are second class citizens in many ways. This is the most cancerous myth of all and those who proselytize it are quite beyond civilized discussion.

Trick: The preponderance of male legislators (male columnists, etc.) demonstrates male power.

False and sexist. This is known as "The Frontman Fallacy": looking at what sex influential people are instead of looking at what they actually do. Most legislators, male and female, show favoritism to women's interests. Female circumcision is committed almost entirely by women, yet no-one says female circumcision demonstrates female power.

Trick: Social institutions not specifically dedicated to women are therefore specifically dedicated to men. "Males have everything else in their favor."

False. It seems that for every issue, Feminists claim that all other issues except the one in question are working in men's favor, and never acknowledge that they say this about every issue!

Trick: Well, in the past and in faraway places, males had it so good and women were treated horribly.

Not credible. This trick conveniently places the assertion far enough away that you can't easily check it, but where the Feminist propaganda machine can still churn out horror stories to fit its agenda.

Myth: Domestic violence is committed primarily by men against women.

False. National studies, such as Steinmetz, such as Straus & Gelles, and such as McNeely, have repeatedly shown the rates men->women and women->men to be almost exactly equal. See http://www.vix.com/pub/men/domestic-index.html

(Note: Link above has been deleted please go HERE for an archived version of the site.)

Myth: We have to admit domestic violence is committed by women, but it's just because they were abused, so it's still the man's fault.

False again! Researchers such as Coromae Mann have concluded "I would not define these women as battered women, I would say they are battering women".

Myth: The single largest cause of injury to a woman in the U.S. is domestic violence.

False. And considering the millions of injuries in the US from other sources, numerically ridiculous.

Myth: Women earn $0.XX per man's $1.00 for the same work. (The $0.XX claimed varies wildly)

False. This myth refuses to take into account important considerations such as actual hours worked (!), training, job commitment, etc.

Myth: Men control more money than women.

False. Men work for and earn more money, but women control more than 65% of US personal wealth, and spend 4 consumer dollars for every consumer dollar that men spend.

Myth: Women's standard of living falls after divorce while men's rises.

False. This myth is based on an "advocacy" study by Lenore Weitzmann that has been long debunked, for use of unrepresentative samples, misleading arithmetic, insistence on counting payments from the ex-husband to the ex-wife as if he still possessed the money, and so forth. Weitzmann openly broke the American Sociological Association's Code Of Ethics but has yet to be disciplined for it.

Trick: "Feminist" and "woman" are interchangeable terms. The opposite of "Feminists" is "men". Feminist interests and women's interests are interchangeable terms.

False and absurd. Our opinion of all women could never be so low.

Trick: I'm a male and I agree with the Feminists that [particular Feminist lie]

Not impressed. You're far from the first man to sell out their own. You may believe that as what you call a "male" you're in the perfect position to backstab men's rights, but we've heard it all before.

Myth: Choice for men is about men trying to evade parental responsibilities.

False and sexist. In the US, choice for men would give men only the rights women have had since Roe v Wade, nothing more. It would not let the man compel the woman to abort. See http://www.nas.com/c4m

Trick: People who oppose Feminists are "threatened by strong women"

It is manipulative and arrogant to imply that the only flaw feminists could possibly have is to be "too strong".

Trick: Feminists just want equality. Feminism is about people.

The anti-male nature of Feminists is so obvious, so huge, so outrageous, that to discuss this myth would only dignify it undeservedly. And we've all noticed that purveyors of this trick don't object when the "Why should Feminism do anything for men" trick is used.

Trick: Why should Feminism do anything for men? Why don't men form their own groups instead of demanding that Feminism behave itself?

We do, and obviously we lack the political clout of Feminism. But given Feminism's constant use of appeal to pity, it is enormously hypocritical to now say "Who cares about you, we got ours!" And we've all noticed that purveyors of this trick don't object when the "Feminism is about people" trick is used.

Myth: Differences in the skills and behaviour of men and women are all caused by socialisation. Thus in principle all women can do most jobs as well as all men.

There is an enormous middle ground between biological determinism and cultural determinism. Both extremes are ridiculous. We should not accept the socialization-causes-it-all theory as "the alternative" to biological determinism.

Trick: Women have it worse because violence against women is increasing at a faster rate than violence against men.

This is the Fallacy of Confounding the Derivative with the Function. Men have it much worse, as evinced by the two major U.S. Department of Justice crime measures. The actual victimization rates for women are still much lower than those of men.

Trick: You can't criticize Feminism because no statement you make is true of all Feminists.

This trick tries to block discussion by making it impossible to express your thought. The writer simply specifies that by "Feminism", he means mainstream Feminism, misandry. Another approach is to qualify the term: "Gender Feminism", "Biofeminism", or "Radical Feminism". And if Feminism really was so random, by the same token you wouldn't be able say anything positive about it.

Trick: Well I don't approve of [some particular Feminist evil]. Only some rare radical Feminists do. Maybe.

If you genuinely don't, then we weren't criticizing you. But generally the statement is part of the old good cop / bad cop routine. Do you ever actually criticize the misandrists? Ever advance new arguments against Feminist policies or actions? Ever spread the word about the latest Feminist outrage? Or do you just tell us to stop holding Feminism accountable?

Trick: There is no Feminist agenda. I must have been away when the agenda was handed out

That tactic has become a favorite one to deflect criticism about the activities being conducted on their behalf. Movements don't exist without agendas, nor can they be effective without a fairly high degree of uniformity among their supporters.

Trick: I don't speak for Feminism, just for myself. I'm not accountable for Feminism. Feminism is not accountable for me.

Fair enough if it came from a real non-Feminist. But if you have argued in defense or support of Feminism, you have shown your colors and we won't forget it for your convenience. It's also fair to hold Feminism accountable for you if other Feminists refrain from significantly criticizing you.

Trick: You're a misogynist!

Misogyny has a precise meaning: Hatred of women as a class. Those who use the term irresponsibly are both unfairly pretending there's much more misogyny than there really is and also demonizing people. If someone calls you a misogynist just because you are in conflict with an individual woman or you don't support special privileges for women, they owe you a huge apology. (But good luck getting it)

Trick: No man can know how awful childbirth is.

False. We have wives, sisters, mothers, female friends, and so forth, and we have a pretty good idea of what is and is not involved. We're not about to be bluffed into giving more sympathy than is merited or bullied into playing dumb.

Trick: You're just as bad as the feminists. They hate men, you hate feminists.

Come off it. Anyone who can't see the difference between hating a birth-group (men) and hating a hate-group back (feminists) needs to pull their head out.

Trick: Anyone who opposes Feminism is a reactionary who wants to go "back to the past". Feminism is "progress".

Anti-feminists are not necessarily traditionalists. The author is a proud anti-feminist and is not a traditionalist. And not everyone agrees that Feminism is "progress". On the contrary, most here think Feminism has been a disaster.

Trick: Why is SO IMPORTANT to you to argue about [some particular gender issue]?

You should be asking this of Feminists, not of Anti-feminists. The Feminists invented the "Which sex has it worse?" issue with all its variations and invented countless lies about it. It was only when the lies were thrown in our face over and over that we realized we had to defend men. Why attack Anti-feminists for defending men, and say nothing to Feminists for attacking men in the first place?

Trick: Men are responsible for wars. This justifies many sorts of man bashing, including the all-male draft.

You mean, men are sent to war. Surely sending a birth group to their deaths does not justify further discrimination against that group.

Trick: You're not a woman so you could never understand.

And when's the last time you told a female Feminist she could never hope to understand because she's not a man? And so the only people who can comment on gender issues are people who have had sex change operations?

Suggested answers for more general tactics, so that you don't have to knock yourself out phrasing a new answer every time they use the old tactic:

Suggested response to obvious Feminist lies:

Thank you for demonstrating once again that Feminists will say anything and listen to nothing.

Suggested response to Feminist backpedalling:

As usual, the Feminist response to being caught at something stinky is to simply crank out more lies and disingenuity.

Suggested response to Feminists disputing common sense:

Thank you for another example of how Feminists need to destroy common sense.

Suggested response when Feminists indicate they just don't care about fairness:

Thank you for demonstrating once again the moral bankruptcy of Feminism.

Suggested response when a Feminist relates suspicious anecdotal "evidence":

"On the Internet, no-one knows your tales are lies" -- or so you Feminists seem to think.